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Is Eli Manning worthy of th (Photo by Nick Laham/Getty Images) *** Local Caption *** Eli Manning
This week's rumblings was created by various discussions I heard, especially over the radio regarding Eli Manning. While I do believe Eli has put himself into the category where he may be considered elite, I was surprised to find people debating whether he and his Head Coach, Tom Coughlin, were Hall of Fame candidates.
I will not take anything away from Eli or even Coughlin as they have both enjoyed success with the Giants. Eli has put up some impressive numbers and nearly came up with a 5,000 yard season this year. His 4,933 yards were a career high and he carried the Giants in a year where they struggled to run the football. Eli is deserving of being considered in the upper echelon of QBs based on his play and Super Bowl titles, but what about him makes people think he is a Hall of Fame QB?
Up until the Super Bowl in February 2008, Eli was considered a somewhat disappointing, inconsistent QB. His leadership was questioned and despite having all the tools, he just couldn't consistently put it together. His play would resemble more of a Mark Sanchez than a Drew Brees. Even though he had his usual inconsistent season, Eli helped the Giants earn the sixth seed in the NFC playoffs before the Giants went on a tear, ending their season with a victory over the then 18-0 New England Patriots in the Super Bowl. The momentum carried into 2008 when Eli had his first season completing over 60% of his passes as he also cut down on his mistakes. His play continued to thrive to this day and with the exception of a semi-disappointing season in 2009 in which he threw 25 interceptions, he had entrenched himself as a top 10 QB in the NFL. Even now, he's pushing in the top 5 with the likes of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, and Aaron Rodgers. Elite? Sure. Hall of Fame? Time to press on that brake pedal.
Beyond the 2 Super Bowl victories, what has made Eli a Hall of Fame level QB? Players like Eddie George, Robert Smith, Corey Dillon, and Fred Taylor were once considere in the top 5 for RBs. QBs like Donovan McNabb, Daunte Culpepper, and Rich Gannon were once considered in the top 5 for QBs. Sorry, but top 5 doesn't get you in the Hall of Fame. For his career, Eli is still a QB who doesn't average a 60% completion percentage and has passed for 27,000 yards. His career QB rating is 82.1. Still closer to Chad Henne than to Drew Brees.
As for Tom Coughlin, this was a coach that was on the hot seat during the season. While he has had only one losing season with the Giants, his team has been known as a team that plays down to the competition and loses games they should win with ease. He helped the Jaguars reach the AFC Championship in their second year, but he struggled to maintain their success and was eventually fired after three consecutive losing seasons. He has had a good career, but he's never been considered one of the best Head Coaches in the NFL. Two Super Bowl victories in 16 years shouldn't be an automatic qualifier for the Hall of Fame.
Going back to elite, what is considered elite anyways? When I ask people to name the elite QBs, some will mention 10 or more QBs. In a league where you have 32 starting QBs, being ranked 10th shouldn't be considered elite. If you're at #10, congratulations on being above average. You're still not elite. At #8, you're warming up. At #6, you're knocking on the door. At #3 or #4, welcome to the club. Eli, welcome to the club.
Just so people aren't confused, I am not saying Eli won't ever be a Hall of Fame QB. I'm just saying he's not there yet. He's only been consistent for half his career and he still has more seasons of play at this level before he can be considered in my book. This post is simply saying Eli isn't a Hall of Fame QB right now. We'll see in four or five years.
0 recs | 27 comments
Wow
Everyone loves to hate.
He’s been in the league eight years.
The only thing that matters is rings.
Ugly play, or good play, they got the rings and he’s got the MVP.
He has shown time and time again that he is if anything a clutch performer.
By the time he reaches fourteen years in the league his stats will most likely be right behind where his brother was at this point.
Oh, and his completion percentage for his career is 58.4%
Adewphin - February 7, 2012
Only thing that matters is rings?
You realize you are posting on a Dolphins blog, right?
joel311 - February 7, 2012
I'm not hating on him. I actually like Eli.
I just don’t think he’s in any Hall of Fame conversations yet. Is Trent Dilfer a Hall of Fame QB if he won another SB? No.
Finhead83 - February 7, 2012
I really don't think all the hype is just the 2 SBs
It’s the way he had played when it matters most. As I said below, I don’t believe he’s a HoFer atm either and it is extremely premature to say “He’s walking into Canton” right now. There’s no question the defense was huge in both championship years. However, Eli stepped up when it mattered most in the 4th quarters, on the road against the best playoff teams this year. Including the playoffs, they beat opponents that combined for 54 wins. (10 ATL, 15 GB, 14 SF, 15 NE) Of course this is just one season, but it’s just these factors that stand out a bit.
I’m basically saying he played a huge part in both Super Bowl wins. For instance, the Bears IMO made it to Super Bowl XLI in SPITE of Rex Grossman… IMO the Giants made it to and won the Super Bowl BECAUSE of Eli and his ability to lead the team to score when it mattered the most, as well as a very good defense.
I really can’t put up a good fight for Eli right now simply because it’s too early to tell, which is why I agree with the last 4 sentences of the post. I also agree that it’s silly to judge QBs based on team championships. For instance, suppose the Bears won that above mentioned SB. Does that make Grossman better than Marino? Is Dilfer better than Marino? When the best QBs of all time are mentioned I usually hear Montana, Manning, Elway, Brady, and Aikman. I hardly ever hear Bradshaw and he won FOUR Super Bowls. Heck, sometimes I even hear Marino’s and Kelly’s names before him sometimes.
I guess part of me is biased a bit cuz I always felt Eli was much maligned for so long and am happy for him that he pulled through and came so far. People would laugh and scoff at the mere notion of him winning a ring, let alone having MORE than his brother. Of course that doesn’t make him better than Peyton, but it still means something. IMO he’s been hated on for so long, I feel he should get a break and congratulated for what he’s accomplished. He may not be a Hall of Famer, but he at least deserves that much.
phinsphan85 - February 7, 2012
Seriously? I know you can make a better argument than that.......
Agent J 78 - February 8, 2012
Well, you said the only thing that matters is rings.
I don’t consider Big Ben a Hall of Fame QB yet and he has two rings. If the two rings were what made it, the NFL would already have 3 Hall of Fame QBs with Brady, Eli, and Big Ben. Then you still have those with career resumes like Brees and Peyton. That is 5 QBs in today’s NFL that would be Hall of Fame worthy. Then you still have other growing potentials like Rivers and Rodgers, especially if Rodgers wins a ring. If Rodgers wins a ring next year, is he Hall of Fame worthy in your book? I’m not even going to get into the younger generation of QBs like Stafford, Newton, or any of the others because it is too early. Theoretically, if the rings were enough, we could be looking at 7 Hall of Fame QBs playing at the same time.
Sorry, but the Hall of Fame is reserved for the best of the best, not just the elite QBs. That’s why I differentiate between elite and Hall of Fame worthy. Peyton and Brady have earned their spots. Brees pretty much has too. That is 3 of them right there. Big Ben and Eli are elite, but they’re not on Canton’s doorstep yet. They still have some years to put together before they can be guaranteed a spot. That is the only point I was making in the post.
Finhead83 - February 8, 2012
^^^This^^^
AussiePhinfan - February 8, 2012
There's only one QB to start and win two Super Bowls not in the Hall of Fame right now
Jim Plunkett.
Kevin Nogle - February 7, 2012
But I'm sure winning two SB MVP's gives Manning the edge to enter the HOF
AlejandroN - February 7, 2012 via mobile
I think the two SB MVPs could be the clincher for Eli
He’s in extremely rare company with that accomplishment.
kmb8488 - February 7, 2012
Two superbowls. That is all
54 - February 7, 2012 via mobile
I think the biggest problem with the term "elite" is that people attribute it to just numbers
Numbers are obviously important. However, for me, “elite” also encompasses a player’s ability to put teams on his back late in games and win. Plain and simple. Eli in his career has led not one, but two game-winning SB drives—the kind of shit you’ll see on NFL Films decades from now; drives that were right on par with Montana’s game-winning drive in SB XXIII and Brady’s in SB XXXVI. And how could you not get chills watching Eli trot onto the field for that final drive last Sunday? The look on his face basically said, “I am absolutely going to do the Patriots the same way I did four years ago. Don’t bother trying to stop me. I own this bunch.”
Eli’s isn’t the biggest or fastest quarterback, and he certainly doesn’t have the strongest arm, but he wins. And he has now taken Tom Brady to the cleaners in both of his SB appearances. Seriously, what do people want from this guy?
kmb8488 - February 7, 2012
rec, well said
The way Eli has broken through the pressure of the NY media and fans practically wanting to push him out of town a few years back, plus being Peyton’s brother has been remarkable to see. If his career ended today, I wouldn’t put him in the HoF, but he’s been getting much better and is entering his peak right now. 2 SB MVPs, GW drives against arguably the team of the millenium thus far.
He has been absolutely clutch when it matters most with a record 15 4th quarter TDs this season and played great in all playoff games. I know this is only one great season, which is why I wouldn’t enshrine him at the moment.However, with 2 SB MVPs already under his belt with a good chunk of his career left , I don’t think it’s ridiculous to think he’ll be a Hall of Famer some day.
phinsphan85 - February 7, 2012
Well Said. Rec'd
ct1361 - February 7, 2012
No he did not take Brady to the cleaners.
He cleansed the NE defense. With soap and water. Nothing more.
Tunaflipper - February 7, 2012
I absolutely agree.
Eli is an elite QB and always took more flak than he deserved. Still, is he Hall of Fame worthy? I don’t think he’s one of the best of the era with the likes of Brady, Peyton, and Brees out there. In my mind, he’s one of those very good, but not quite there players. Kind of like Kurt Warner. Eli certainly can make it to the Hall. It’s not too late, but I just think it’s too early to say he belongs.
Finhead83 - February 7, 2012
"Very good but not quite there player"
I can agree with you there… which is why I can’t dub him elite yet. Nor HOF. His play is too spotty to call him elite. When you think of an elite QB and they have a bad game, you say “man, QB _ really had a bad game today, he was off. He’s gonna explode next week against _.” When Eli has a bad game, you say “Eli had another bad game” or “there he goes again” because he has his fair share of bad games all season.
As for HOF, too early to call. If he never wins another SB and has five losing seasons, do you still consider him HOF just based on his work this far? I’m not so sure he’d make it. Again, consistency over an extended period of time to earn that privilege.
PhinNomenol! - February 7, 2012 via Android app
"Players like Eddie George, Robert Smith, Corey Dillon, and Fred Taylor were once considere in the top 5 for RBs. QBs like Donovan McNabb, Daunte Culpepper, and Rich Gannon were once considered in the top 5 for QBs."
How many Super bowl rings and / or MVP’s do these players have? Nuff said.
Wade - February 7, 2012
So if McNabb had a Super Bowl ring, he'd be a Hall of Fame QB?
Sorry, he wouldn’t pass in my book. Eli just hasn’t had the body of work yet. Again, that’s not to say he can’t get to the part, but he’s only been consistent for half his career. He still has a few steps to go.
Finhead83 - February 7, 2012
All this qb quality talk doesn't address the new rules that allow qb's an edge.
When qb’s like Brees & Rodgers are shattering records than the standard for elite has to go up. Eli ain’t there.
Btw, Eli won Super Bowl mvp by default. It was the the Giants D that held Brady and the Patriots D isn’t much of a match for any team.
Tunaflipper - February 7, 2012
I disagree
All of that talk is under the assumption that Eli is gonna have 5 more years of 4000 yards, 25+ TD seasons, which I and many believe he will. That will make him a HOFer. I don’t believe anyone has said that right now Eli is a HOFer, but unless he has a"Peyton-like" injury, the dude is gonna go to Canton.
If that doesn’t convince you, Eli is 30. With two more 4000 yard seasons, Eli breaks into top 20 all time in career passing yards. Assuming he never goes to the Super Bowl again, the dude is still on pace for HOF even if he just coasts from here
tylerrr - February 7, 2012
I am fine with that
If Eli keeps this up, I absolutely do think he may deserve to make the Hall of Fame. If he retired tomorrow, I don’t think he’s quite there. This isn’t a knock on Eli, but he has a few more years before he’s knocking on Canton’s door. It’s just way too early to say he is. It’s kind of like how everyone said Big Ben is a HoF QB. Maybe, but not quite yet.
Finhead83 - February 7, 2012
Three out of the five you listed are first ballot HoFers right now
Roethlisberger, Rodgers & Eli are all very much on their way. If Eli never played another snap would he make the HoF? I think he would eventually, another 3 or so years like last year and he is a lock like his brother.
As for Coughlin he has put his name in the conversation but will need more to make it for sure. If he manages another SB win he is a lock but we all know how hard it is to even make the SB let alone win it.
Agent J 78 - February 8, 2012
Yes, 3 of 5 are.
How many QBs do you think should make it in from this era? 7? 8? Ben has 2 rings. Rodgers is close. That would be 5 guaranteed and Rodgers knocking on the door. Then you have all the young QBs as well and those that still have a chance like Rivers.
If Eli retired today, I just don’t think he’s Hall of Fame worthy because he’s been a top 5 QB for maybe 2 years. He’s done solid for 4 of 8 years, but he’s been elite for much less. He has more work to do to be locked into Canton.
Finhead83 - February 8, 2012
Hey Finhead, this is unrelated to the content of the post.
But it is bothering me. In your last post, the Mock post (the 5th edition I believe), that was obviously a simple typo. It irritated me alittle bit that you honestly thought that I thought the Dolphins are “transitioning to the 3-4” under Kevin Coyle. I may not be the smartest guy to ever walk the earth but I am not an absolute moron. LOL. It was a simple typo, I don’t know how 3-4 was put on the page and obviously I know that the Dolphins have run 3-4 for the past 4 seasons (with Nolan implementing a few 4-3 formations, primarily for redzone play in 10’/11’). You had one yourself too you know. I saw that you listed David Decastro as a Wide Receiver. :)
The point of the post was how despite holes opening up on defense, other needs have to be addressed. It is a balancing game between what needs are addressed to what extent and I offered some opinions. As for Outside Linebacker, I talked about the postion with the assumption that Dansby would play Middle Linebacker in the Dolphins 4-3 defense rather than Outside Linebacker. If he does play Outside Linebacker in Miami than Middle linebacker opens up, whic if the Dolphins elect to have options with in Free Agency (of varying caliber).
civwarbuff - February 8, 2012
I agree with your poit Finhead about the hall of fame. It is too early.
The hall is reserved for all time great players who play their position at the highest level over the extent of many, many seasons. Being great players doesn’t cut it. You have to perform at the highest levels over a large period of time to be considered a Hall of Fame player. For Eli, it is just too early. Let’s have the discussion in 4-6 years.
As for Eli being an “elite” player, different people see the word differently. When I think of an elite Quarterback, I think of a player who can make every throw (that is a given), has some physical traits that stand out immediately about that player that other players don’t have, players who understand every coverage and know how to manipulate coverages with body positioning, eyes e.t.c., and above everything else are completely poised under pressure (physically and situationally), know how to bring out the best in their players through leadership and passion and execute at the highest level in dire situations. A Quarterback who can win your team a game that you had no buisness winning and take your team to places they otherwise can’t go.
This reads like a checklist for Eli Manning. However, he has only performed at this level for a brief amount of time and isn’t doing it at quite the level of a Tom Brady. Brady lead a team that had zero continuity on the offensive line, critical needs at Wide Receiver a team that had serious issues running the ball and problems all over the place on defense to a 13-3 record, including multiple astounding comebacks where he carried his team to victories, and through the playoffs and into the Superbowl. Or a Drew Brees. What Brees has accomplished over the period of time that he has, is beyond astounding. So it depends on your take.
Personally I think he is “elite” but its open to interpretation. Both Mannings, Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Rivers would be my group but there is so much variation between the players it is hard to group them under one umbrella term. There are also other Quarterbacks whom I love, so it’s all subjective.
Interesting idea for a post though.
civwarbuff - February 8, 2012
great write-up
this has been getting on my nerves so much lately. i think this all stems from the fact that, given the popularity of the NFL, tv and radio stations have come to devote a lot of their programming to talk about the league. they obviously need to create topics to fill all this space, and it seems their biggest obsession now is who’s “elite” and who’s not “elite.”
it’s become by far the most overused word in sports. it’s like sportscasters (and a lot of fans, too) have decided that if they tag someone with the label “elite,” it changes who they are as a player. like if i call eli manning “elite” enough times, he’ll never again have a season like he had last year, where he was miserable and threw 25 INT’s.
there’s a more general obsession with judging quarterbacks as a whole. i understand it’s by far the most interesting position in sports, but do we really need to make profound conclusion based on almost every single thing they do? if you listen to the talking heads, almost every QB in the league is either “elite” or “on his way to become elite,” despite the fact that the definition of the word “elite” makes it impossible for more than a few guys to reach that status.
the bottom line is, those of us who watch this league week-in and week-out know what’s what. we don’t need some talking head who’s seen fewer games than we have to give us iron-clad labels for everyone. i heard colin cowherd say yesterday, “for the last 24 months, i’ve had eli in my top 4 QB’s.” Oh yeah? you had him ahead of brady, peyton, brees, or rodgers when he was throwing 25 INT’s? Not to mention vick, romo, roethlisberger, rivers, etc…even josh freeman for crying out loud, who all had way better years and were considered better QB’s than eli at this time last year. but now that eli’s won another super bowl, he vaults over all of them (until next year, when he sucks again, and all the talking heads forget that they made bold proclamations in february 2012 that eli is and forever will be “elite”).
i’ve also read articles that state that “once you’re elite (as eli now is), you’re splitting hairs when comparing to other elite QB’s.” oh yeah? did you watch aaron rodgers this year? you think it’s “splitting hairs” to debate rodgers vs. eli? let me know when eli throws 45 TD’s and 6 INT’s. it’s as if a lot of giants fans think that if they say eli is “elite” enough times, and use the simple fact that he’s won championships to back up their argument (see: trent dilfer), they muddy the argument to the point that you really can’t say ANYONE is better than eli.
the fact is that there are a few QB’s who we know will be great next year, with QB ratings well over 100 and records of 11-5 and up. those QB’s are rodgers, brady, brees, and peyton if he returns at full strength. sorry fans and analysts, but no matter how many times you wanna call eli “elite” cuz he’s now won two super bowls, he’s not in that category. ask yourself if you’d be shocked if he finishes with a 7-9 record next year, and then we’ll see how much your black and white proclamations are really worth.
DanthMan42 - February 8, 2012
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